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25/1/2023

Homo Sapiens Serenissimus: our evolutionary future with Tony Musskopf

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This is the transcript of a conversation with Tony Musskopf for my Multidimensional Evolution Podcast which was published on 28 May 2022

Introduction

Kim McCaul: Most religious traditions have the notion of some kind of spiritually more advanced beings. These beings are usually surrounded by mystical and mythical ideas, putting them far beyond the reach of us mere mortals. Angels, avatars, Buddhas, Jesus, gods and demigods are all terms for such beings often tied up in oppressive religious dogmas. A more rational study of modern dimensionality allows us to understand that, as per usual, these different traditions contain partial truths hidden underneath their cultural distortions. There are different evolutionary stages to consciousness, and as some consciousnesses move forward in their growth, they do indeed start to seem godlike and totally unlike us. But once we appreciate that we are also on an evolutionary trajectory, we begin to see that these advance states of consciousness are our own future. The evolutionary stages of consciousness are a big research focus in Conscientology, which proposes a model of different steps that we move through on our way to the “top”. And I'm putting “top” here in air quotes because we have to assume that there are other states beyond what we can currently grasp. At the pinnacle of this model, the stages that we can currently grasp is a category of consciousnesses called Homo Sapiens Serenissimus in Conscientology. These consciousnesses are fully aware of the fact that they are in their last physical incarnations and are entirely committed to providing assistance to all of us.
            My guest today to discuss this evolutionary stage is Tony Musskopf, a psychologist, a facilitator and writer. Tony has a master's degree in peace and conflict studies, and for over 30 years he has studied, run workshops and published his research findings in Conscientology. His main focus of study is Serenology, which is the study of the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus. Tony is currently a volunteer for the international project BIBLIOAFRICA. I first met Tony back in 1997 when I started studying Conscientology in Rio de Janeiro. And since then, our life journeys have taken us both to Australia, with Tony now living in Cairns. It was a real pleasure to speak about this important topic with my evolutionary colleague and I hope you get a lot from this conversation. Towards the end, Tony shares a technique he has developed to help them understand the workings of the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus. I definitely encourage you to stick around for that practical explanation.
            Finally, I would like to put out an appeal to you. As you will hear, identifying and studying living Homo Sapiens Serenissimus is not easy, as one of their key attributes is anonymity. And yet, if you are a student, an explorer of multidimensionality, it is entirely possible that you've had some encounters with one, either in or outside the body. If you think you may have, I would love to hear from you on the email provided in the show notes. And before we dive in, the usual reminder, don't believe in anything, including what we talk about here. Experiment, research and come to your own conclusions.

Interview

Kim McCaul: Tony! Hey, thanks for joining me today and I'm really looking forward to talking with you about your research on the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus.

Tony Musskopf: Thank you very much, Kim. It's a pleasure for me to discuss this complex subject in Conscientology. And I'm more than happy to go ahead and perhaps we have more questions than answers regarding this subject, you know, because the Serenissimus is a very advanced and transcendent issue in Conscientology. So thank you for having me.

Kim McCaul: Yeah, I think you're right there. This is incredibly complex. And we will probably end up with more questions than answers, in a way. But those questions, I think, are really old in a way. Like, you know, we talked about, you just mentioned the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus is an advanced concept in Conscientology, which I think is true. And the Conscientology's approach is kind of unique, but the concept of some kind of consciousnesses, some kind of beings who are in some way more advanced than others, beings like a Buddha or an avatar or that kind of concept seems to have been around for a long time. And so I'm curious, maybe to start with, you could just explain for people who don't even know what we're talking about right now with Homo Sapiens Serenissimus, what that concept is, what that term refers to. And then I'd be curious about your thoughts about how to place that idea, how it's developing Conscientology in the kind of historic context of notions about some kind of advanced consciousnesses.

Tony Musskopf: Okay. Let's start with the theory. So the theory of the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus was created by Professor Waldo Vieira, who was the founder of the Conscientology. He was a Brazilian researcher, and this theory was created in 1970. Actually, he organized a few years later an event in a university in Sao Paolo, Brazil, where he officially presented this theory for a body of researchers. And that was the first official launch of his theory. But the name Serenissimus, it's a bit curious to know the history behind this name, because first of all, he accumulated a lot of out of the body experiences over his life. And he found in some of these experiences the existence of high evolutionary level of consciousness, as you mentioned. So actually this is not a new concept, the idea of a highest level of or more mature consciousness or beings. We see these in the history from different perspectives, from religions, from philosophical, ideological perspectives, but actually from Vieira's point of view, this Serenissimus is a consciousness like you, like me, like everybody else. It's important to mention that this consciousness it's a human being, a man, women, so they are here in this intraphysical dimension. But the name, the nickname Serenissimus, which means a person who has a huge level of serenity. So that that's the reason behind of the name. So Professor Vieira get in contact with this name for the first time in an extraphysical dimension. He was out of his body. It was, if I am not wrong, around, 1976, the sixties actually, in Sao Paolo and where he was seeing a crowd of extraphysical consciousness running away. And they were shouting the name, “The Serenissimus is coming, the Serenissimus is coming”. So he saw a lot of extraphysical consciousness running like a crazy and trying to flee from some kind of big power or some kind of a strange presence of somebody. And suddenly he saw a personality approaching with an incredible power of energy. And this personality was communicating with telepathy, a strong message of fraternity and serenity. And this personality was like floating or flying. It was not, like she was not like walking. It was a woman. She wasn't walking like us. She was like flying. And she was passing through this dimension, this extraphysical dimension close to the city of San Paolo. And she was like cleaning and energizing everything around her presence. So that was the first time he, Professor Waldo, heard that name and he used this name to create and build the theory around the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus. So in other words, the Serenissimus is our future. We human beings are evolving. We are evolving for millennia, for millions of years.

Kim McCaul: Just before we go there, Tony, there's a couple things from that story that you shared that kind of really interest me. The first is just a short one just for listeners. But I think this story, that experience is that who’s in Professor Vieira Projections of consciousness book.

Tony Musskopf: No, this is another experience. He didn’t publish this experience he had, in a book. He told about his experience a couple of times during events and he mentioned just fragments of this experience in his books; actually the experience you mentioned in the Projections of the consciousness book is with Monja. She is the Serenissimus that now she's not no longer in the intraphysical dimension and we can talk later about her.

Kim McCaul: This was a different one. Yeah.

Tony Musskopf: Yes is a different one. It's a different experience and it is important to say that Professor Waldo is not the only person that have already approach an interview and saw this kind of consciousness. There are other researchers, but Serenology, which is the science that study the Serenissimus is almost brand new field in Conscientology. Despite of this theory being launched in 1970, we are just doing the baby steps. The first steps, in learning how to research these high evolved personalities.

Kim McCaul: Yes. And I'm really curious to get to that later, because I know that this is your research focus. That's why we're talking today. But the other thing, how you to do that, I think is really interesting because there's maybe there's a tool that we can all use if we want to understand our evolutionary future better. But the other thing that you mentioned that I found intriguing is: you said that the consciousnesses were scared or they were running away and they were calling out. They were kind of like panicking. And so maybe you could explain about why would consciousness, why would people be as scared of somebody coming with what you described as this fraternal, peaceful, loving energy?

Tony Musskopf: Yes, look, the Serenissimus is full of paradoxes. So, one of them is exactly what we can see in Professor Waldo’s experiences. The energy of the Serenissimus is something irresistible. Once you touch or you approach this level of this pattern of energy, it's a kind of a contagion, sense of feeling of fraternity. Your mind expands and you see at this point the reality of your own consciousness. So this leads us to a self-investigation and puts us in a kind of moment that you need to face our corruptions, our immaturity and  it force us to change, it force us to make like a lot of revolutions in our own lives. So when this personality was approaching that tropospherical, which is like a non-evolved dimension extraphysically close to the city of San Paolo and those consciousness were running away, fleeing from the possibility to face these realities, face the challenge of research and change themselves because most of them are linked to negative traits, vicious, pathological behaviors. And look, the Serenissimus is not the personality that wants to change or force changes in terms of that. This is an option that relies on each one of us, you know, but at this point, those extraphysical consciousness saw this level of energy and they try simply to escape from their responsibility of changing themselves. So that's why they are running. They're escaping from the extraphysical presence of the Serenissimus.

Kim McCaul: So it was too confronting. So the energy, the difference of their own holothosene, their own level of thinking and feeling was too, there was too much dissonance between theirs and that carried by the Serenissimus.

Tony Musskopf: Yes, I can give you kind of example so you can think of the gap between of the evolutionary level from the Serenissimus and ourselves normal or vulgar human beings, let's say that. We can think about ourselves and the apes or mammals or other animals. For example, let's imagine that we are in Africa, in a savannah, and we want to help a lion or elephant that has a disease or any problem. So if we, as human beings try to approach this animal, he's going to be afraid of our presence because the animal won't be able to understand that we are there to actually help him in order to protect him or even save his life. You know what I mean? This confrontation is from the zoological, animal perspective and from the Serenissimus perspectives, we are animals. We are lower evolved, we have a lower level of understanding about the evolutionary system and we can react in that way. So this is a natural reaction when you see like a huge gap or a huge difference between evolutionary levels of consciousness.

Kim McCaul: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. It's like somebody offering you help and you're like, No, I don't want that help. I want to do it my own way. Even though that would be very painful and take you much longer.

Tony Musskopf: Yeah. Another example is, for example, I work as a psychologist in Brazil and here in Australia for many years. We go to a lot of communities and we support a lot of families that are facing multiple problems from domestic violence, drugs, mental health issues. And even if you have like a lot of options, tools, resource, multiprofessional teams to help and try to change those realities, at the end of the day, this is a decision of each one, of each family, of each parent or each person to change their reality. And sometimes or in some cases you are not welcome even if you have the best intention ever. You know what I mean? So but this is just like a simple idea in terms of the Serenissimus. This is much, much more complex, you know, because the difference, the gap between those consciousnesses are much higher. And it's another paradox because they are among us, they are living among us, they are consciousnesses, they are like us human beings, they can be our neighbors. They can deliver your parcel at your door, you know, you can meet them in the supermarket and the streets. They are pretty close and living among us, but we cannot notice them. They are giants hidden among dwarves, so we are living alongside with these persons, with this consciousness, without noticing them. So this level of camouflage or anonymous condition, they sustain, it’s also another paradox of the Serenissimus essence.

Kim McCaul: So yes, a giant among dwarves. And you mentioned a few times that there is this huge gap between us and Serenissimus. Maybe you could explain a bit what is this gap constituted of? You know, what does it mean to have this gap and in what ways? Does it show up? What traits? I guess what elements of their personality or attributes are so different from that of us as a regular human?

Tony Musskopf: Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting question because when we start studying the traits or - we use a word Conscientology that is the strong traits, the mega strong traits, which is the positive characteristics, the potential, the skills a person has. So the  Serenissimus have multiple positive characteristics. For example, the first one is their evolutionary level. They, as a as we discussed before, they are in the final stages of their evolutionary journey on this planet. So in a few lives they will become something that we call free consciousness, so they won't need to be reborn anymore like us. So they are in the last stages or the last moments of the cycle of life and death of their reincarnation, if you prefer to use like a common word for that. So this is one of the main characteristics of this Serenissimi personalities. They are like reaching the highest level or the evolutionary level in the human, in the humanity and planet, so soon they won't be among us anymore because they will jump to another cycle of evolution. They will become free consciousness. They no longer need to have a body, a physical body, a physical life, and even an extraphysical life like us, normal human beings, because they are just going to live with a mental body, which is like a body more subtle and advanced. So this is one of the characteristics of the Serenissimus. Another one is the serenity itself, the emotional reaction. They don't have it anymore. They don't have toxicity or ups and downs in terms of emotional reactions. If you get in contact with the holothosene, which means the vibes of this personality, you can feel yourself like in a kind of a spring season, your own energy is start getting higher and very positive because they are unshakable. No one can annoy them. And even if they go to places like we said before, in Sao Paolo, a metropolis or capital city, or even if you go to a place like a war zone, for example, we are seeing like Ukraine now with all this conflicts going on in Europe, the Serenissimus is able to go to visit a war zone and help civilians, the military troops or whoever in places like that and Serenissimus is able to understand the suffering and all this madness of a war and being in that environment without suffering and without being affected by these pathological behaviors, being able to help these personalities that are in this kind of place. So they are not insensitive persons. Actually they are in the opposite situation, they are very empathetic. They can understand you, they can make connection and synchronize their own feelings with other living beings and help them with their serenity. So serenity is another characteristic of the Serenissimus. They have no self-conflicts anymore. They are at peace with themselves. They understand the humanity from a multidimensional perspective. And as I mentioned, with the example of the lion in the savanna, they understand our instinctive reactions, our animalised behaviors, and they simply don't suffer with that because they know that we are not as mature as them and they actually want to help and share their knowledge and their wisdom in terms of trying to catalyze or make our evolution better and quicker. You know what I mean? So that's the main reason of them.

Kim McCaul: And, you know, it's interesting when you are talking, it's kind of a bit like us and them, right? You're talking like they are like us and they understand us almost like we are kind of an animal or some other kind of species. But, you know, as you are talking, I guess my sense is that the reason, the reason they are able to, I mean somebody who is a Serenissimus is able to fully empathize with the people in the war zone, both the victims and the perpetrators, the people that are suffering and the people that are inflicting the suffering, is because they themselves have been through all of those stages as part of their evolution and I'm assuming are fully aware of, there's a memory, there's an active memory at that stage of their own multi existential history, I'm assuming. So I guess it goes back to what you were saying earlier, that that is our future. That is our future reality.

Tony Musskopf: Yeah. Look, everybody has a level of serenity nowadays, right now, you know, because we are kind of seeds of Serenissimus now, we are just doing the first steps and one day you or myself, everybody will reach and will get and leave this evolutionary level. This is a matter of time. So for example nowadays  it's important to think about how we react in terms of crazy things that you see in the society. For example, this Ukranian war, the climate change challenges and things like that, you know. So the way we react from these situations, these circumstances show us how serene, how fraternal, how evolved we are in terms of the Serenissimus. It's a good way to compare and see how big is the gap we have nowadays. That's the main idea there, the comparison between human beings and animals. It's a good way to understand this gap. You know, you can think from the other way. We can think, for example, if you talk to your cat or to your dog at home or any pet you have at home and try to explain to these animals some complex ideas, some abstract ideas, you won't be able to do that. And the cat won't be able, the dog won't be able to express or talk or develop a logical thinking about their own lives at the moment. So this communication, this gap of communication can help us to understand this gap between both Serenissimus and ourselves.

Kim McCaul: Yeah, is a very good point. Yeah. So one thing that makes me wonder, when you have this gap, this big sort of evolutionary gap, is how do we avoid idealizing the Serenissimus, some sort of putting them on a pedestal, which I think is essentially what has been happening historically. Right? That you have these religions, you have the angels, you have the Buddhas, you have whatever the different traditions are, these beings that are described literally as otherworldly, as beyond our reach, you know, one has to bow down to them. How do we avoid doing the same thing now with the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus?

Tony Musskopf: I think this is a task for both of us, Pre-serenissimus which are us and the Serenissimus. So from the Serenissimus point of view, they have a right to decide to do something to avoid this gurulatry or to become myths, gurus or even gods, as you can see in the history. Because the beliefs, the religion dogmas are not something needed for us anymore If you want to live a rational, logical and more like evolved way of life. We don’t need this structure of thinking anymore. But from the Serenissimus point of view, they have already decided to camouflage, to hide themselves from us because they know that most of the population, the humanity is not ready to understand the Serenissimi or the theory of Serenissimus yet, because of all of these religions and beliefs we have on earth at the moment. So they are anonymous and this is one of the most complex traits of the Serenissimus. They use a kind of social camouflage and they look like a normal face in the crowd. So this is an intraphysical way they found to keep going to do their jobs, to work in terms of a huge level of assistance and at the same time live their lives. Because if they are man, woman, children, the elderly, young people here living here, and they have like huge responsibilities in terms of helping the humanity, they need to use this kind of social camouflage to keep going to live their lives. You know what I mean?

Kim McCaul: So how does how does a person who is anonymous.. Because when we think about people with huge responsibilities and with, you know, making doing big assistance, we tend to think of prominent people, people who run big charities or people who, you know, have multi-billion-dollar businesses and can make giant donations or something. So how does an anonymous person who might be your Amazon delivery driver or whatever, you know, your colleague in the office, how do they make a big contribution to assistance and helping millions of people?

Tony Musskopf: Well, this works in terms of multidimensional assistance. This is not only physical assistance. For example, let's imagine that a cleaner that works in the Pentagon corridors, this person can be a Serenissimus. He can work there among multiple military leaders in Washington, in the Pentagon. And by using the energy and by using their multidimensional assistance, this person can work behind the scenes to try to de-escalate decisions that can lead to more complex crises in terms of military crisis worldwide. You know what I mean? So they use the energy, the basis or the source of the assistance provided by the Serenissimus is energy. So they are located in places, institutions or even in in places linked to hot spots of bio-energies. And they are able to collect, accumulate and concentrate these energies and spread this fraternity and this positiveness to the people that actually are the leaders in the intraphysical dimension. And they can inspire people. They can help scientists. They can help the physical or intraphysical leaders. They are like doing the job here, intraphysically. So this is just one side of the assistance the Serenissimus can provide.

Kim McCaul: In a sense, people's thoughts would change, right? That what you're saying, like people making critical decisions and then because of the presence of the Serenissimus they might access more fraternal thoughts, more positive thoughts, more rational thinking.

Tony Musskopf: Yeah. Imagine if you are in a meeting, to try decide a peace agreement between two countries in war. And one of the persons that are on that table in that discussions receive a huge positive fraternal energy. This is going to change the nature of the discussion of this meeting, and this can affect positively the outcomes of that meeting. This person can be the person who delivers the water, the catering. Is not necessarily to be the leader, the president or someone in a political position. So the energy is a kind of way to communicate ideas. But let's clarify one important thing. The Serenissimus is not able to change minds, but they can create opportunities and provide ideas. And if you are able to absorb or understand this kind of frequency, or ideas or new ideas, you can use them and it’s all about how open we are to understand and use them. So you can ask me Kim:  “Well, the world is chaotic nowadays. We see a lot of problems. What the Serenissimus have done because we are not living in a organized world and.. what's going on?” So that's the point. The Serenissimus respect our level of evolution. Going back to example of the savannah. We cannot prevent the lion from attack, hunt and kill the zebra. You know, this is this is lions nature.

Kim McCaul: So I guess what you're saying, Tony, is that Serenissimus is not stopping us making bad decisions. Is that also why they're not giving us all the answers, you know, helping us cure diseases and all the wars, giving us the solutions on how to live better on this planet? Is that all kind of part of the same deal, that they don't interfere in that way?

Tony Musskopf: Yeah, that's true. They don't interfere because they understand and they respect our level of evolution, our evolutionary level now. So, for example, we now have already evolved in terms of civilization, in terms of society. And perhaps some of these evolutionary steps, there are perhaps the Serenissimus touch behind these evolutionary steps in terms of civilization. For example, we now live, most of the countries, in new democracies. We have human rights. We have diplomatic ways of dealing with conflict instead of just making wars. And we live longer, we have the longevity, the science. The medicine has evolved and now we are able to live without being affected by a simple disease. You know, we can talk about Serenissimus and Conscientology and multiple subjects without being persecuted by dictatorships or authoritarian regimes in most of the countries, not all countries, but we have a freedom of speech. We have libraries, we have Internet. We are studying the universe and exploring other planets and even our own consciousness. So I ask you Kim where these new ideas came from? From Conscientology’s perspective, most or some of these ideas are not original. They have already existed in other dimensions, in more evolved communities, extraphysically speaking, and even in other planets, more evolved planets. So the Serenissimus they are able to inspire leaders and people, researchers, philosophers to try to spread these new and fraternal ideas and ways of life for us. But this is something that happens little by little, and they respect this level of maturity we have nowadays instead of force change. Because that's not why or how the evolution works. Everybody has their own responsibility towards their own evolution. So we cannot change or force anybody to evolve. This is your own homework. It is something that you're going to do by yourself, you know?

Kim McCaul: It goes really to the nature of our reality then, you know, because I know people ask in online forums and stuff, people ask things like: “Why do I have to go through all this pain? And I have so much suffering in my life. I just don't I don't want to come back next life. I just want to leave.” Or people will say, well, if there are.. whatever, people don't talk about Serenisimus normally, but if there are angels or if there's a God or whatever, why do they allow all the suffering? And what you're saying is in a sense that the suffering, the struggle, the pain, the growth is the purpose of us being here.

Tony Musskopf:  No, No at all. I'm saying that now we have tools in our hands. We have information, we have technology, and we have options to choose for better ways instead of suffering.

Kim McCaul: Yes, and I understand. Sorry. Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing. I understand you're saying that we now have much better tools, right? We have much better information. But in terms of generally, the process of life, you know, you might say, well, why do we have to evolve? Why can't the Serenissimus just say “Here are all the answers”. Or you know, whatever people think is the most evolved beings, why can't they just say “Here are all the answers? Live happy lives.” And clearly that is not the point. So there must be some purpose for this hard work that is life for most of us.

Tony Musskopf:  Yeah, and I think the answer for this question is also related to the meaning or the purpose of the life itself. Why we are here? What is the purpose of being really born in a body? Live with a family, living into a society, you know. Why do we need to go back here? Why do I need to be born? Why do I need to live this cycle of lives and deaths for millions of years? You know, so that's a good question. And I believe that we don't have a clear answer for that, but I believe that Serenissimus reached a level of experience that covered basically all human knowledge. Imagine, for example, a person who is able to study all subjects, learn and be fluent in all languages, get all awards in terms of Nobel Prizes, art prizes, political games, have all intelligence, everything, all experiences you have in life. So that's the Serenissimus. But not only that, because you can add to that or you must add into that the experience in terms of paraphenomenon, the multidimensionality, the cosmoethics, the sense of fraternity. So this is something you won't find at the universities or the books or even in the conventional science or the materialistic science, is something that you need to learn from interacting with other people and help them. So the assistenciality is also another lesson to we learn from the Serenissimus because all they do is based on helping other people. They don't think about themselves anymore. Their ego, their personal interests are aside, because they are 100% focused on helping the planet and their humanity and let's say they are in the last steps at this point. And I believe they reached a level of experience when they they know almost everything on the earth and they are just in the last chapters of this journey, in going to another level of evolution, a more complex and something that we are not able to understand. The Serenissimus is the limit of the Conscientology, something that happens after that it's very hard for us to understand. Even the Serenissimus it's very hard because they probably have cognitive skills or other kind of intelligences and features that we are not able to understand and comprehend in terms of our logics nowadays. So I'm not sure if I answered your question, but they respect our freedom of choice and the ability we have to make choices in our lives. But they also give us or help us, give us new ideas, new opportunities, new technologies, inspiring people to move forward. So that's the point. They speed up our evolution. So, for example, if you live again with a pet at home, you cannot change the instinct of this animal. But the interaction between human and animal can, we can teach other. You can be more empathetic in terms of the animal behavior and the animals, perhaps they can learn something from us. They can even develop new language, you can see online, for example. So animals, they can talk, they can use devices to develop some wording and language to interact with humans. So this is a kind of example you can give to understand a bit of interaction between us and the Serenissimus.

Kim McCaul: There is one thing you mentioned I just want to quickly touch on because it's a topic that I feel quite strongly about. You talked about how the Serenissimus no longer have an ego. They don't think about themselves and all their focus is on assistance to others. And I think it's important to differentiate, because I know in many spiritual traditions, including in some very negative and manipulative traditions, that tendency in people that drive to help, that drive to be of assistance can be kind of exploited and people become kind of martyrs where, you know, it's essentially said that if you have any or if you want to set any personal boundaries or you want to create anything for yourself that can be shamed and that you were kind of ego driven and that it's spiritually, pure to only give it to give it, right? So I feel this feel is important to differentiate. I'm sure what you were saying about the Serenissimus is that in that case, that assistance, that continuous flow of assistance comes from an incredibly solid basis of self-grounding somehow. So it's not it's no martyrdom. There's no suffering in the kind of, you know, the Christian theme, like Jesus died for our sins. He went through all the suffering and all that stuff. Yeah. What do you think about that?

Tony Musskopf:  Yeah, like, look, you mentioned Jesus. Jesus was not a Serenissimus. We can say that considering the circumstances, we know about his life. One reason, he was not anonymous. He was like a public personality, you know? Yeah, of course, there are a lot of histories and myths around him, around his personality, the old dogma around that. But he was not an anonymous person, so it makes us to think he was not a Serenissimus. And he also showed emotional overreactions in some kinds of circumstances of his life. So this is not like a serene personality or way in terms of control there own emotions.

Kim McCaul: I would say about the Jesus thing with the emotions. I heard people say this before. We know and I guess I don't know that we really know. For example, his storming of whatever it is when he throws the tables over or something like it's a story we don't really know. And the other thing I'm curious is whether to say someone is.. I’m not saying Jesus was a Serenissimus. I totally agree with that. But I'm just thinking when we analyze these kinds of historic characters, we really work with very limited data. And when we are talking about consciousnesses that are quite evolved, even if they're not necessarily Serenissimus, maybe sometimes there is a disconnect between, like their actions are more like performative rather than really, you know, representing. The actual emotional life. Going on. You know what I mean?

Tony Musskopf:  Yeah, but look, I got your point. But what I would like to say is to understand the Serenissimus. Let's think about the circumstances. One circumstance. Imagine that you are able to help a person. And create a positive impact on this person's life. Without this person notice your assistance. So if you understand that, you start understanding how the Serenissimus work because they don't want to show their faces. They just want to make things to help people and help not only the humanity, but the ecosystem, the other species as well, and the whole harmony and stability of the whole planet. You know what I mean? So when you do that and you don't expect nothing, that's go back to you in terms of reward.

Kim McCaul: No gratitude, no adoration, no appreciation.

Tony Musskopf:  No. And look, you are like pretty happy and this is something meaningful for you. So that's the idea of the Serenissimus. If you think, look, you can we can go to another extreme point of this spectrum. If you think about the serial killer, the serial killer is a person, is a psychopath, is somebody that make a lot of brutal things without showing his face. So the Serenissimus is exactly the opposite side of a serial killer because he's not showing his face, but he's doing a positive action, not only for one, but sometimes they are responsible for a country or continents. Their level, their jurisdiction, or in terms of existence is pretty high and wide, you know. So when you understand that we can help the people without asking for nothing, for no rewards or gratitude, that's the point.  Extraphysically speaking, their job is much more complex because they are behind the scenes of another subject in Serenology, which is the extraphysical reurbanisation. You know, this is another big thing, in terms of the points you are raising. Our planets now is living or experiencing a kind of global or worldwide cleaning that a team of Serenissimis, a group of Serenissimus and thousands of extraphysical helpers have done on the pathological extraphysical dimensions we are living in this planet or we have on this planet. So there are billions of extraphysical consciousness in need of assistance in those dimensions. And these dimensions are around Earth. These extraphysical consciousness are stuck in very old trauma and dramas. They are intruders, psychotics, animalized consciousness, very primitive consciousness. They are trapped in their own emotional drama and let’s say, their old fashioned way of living. Imagine Neanderthals, people from in the dark ages, victims of medieval wars. They are all consciousnesses. They are there, they are living there. And these communities are like kind of battlegrounds, favelas, extraphysical lands or hells. You can use the mythological idea of hell. So there are a lot of hells polluting our planets nowadays and creating or reinforcing this madness in these pathological things. So the Serenissimus, they work behind the scenes, in a intraphysical life as a human being, but extraphisically they are doing a kind of reurbanization. They are demolishing these negative communities and rebuilding new extraphysical and more evolved communities. So this is a kind of huge social extraphysical work. Imagine the Serenissimus as a mastermind of social work in terms of Earth. They visit the extraphysical communities and they approach these personalities one by one. And then this leads us to the beginning of our discussion when professor Waldo saw a Serenissimus visiting Sao Paolo, when he saw a lot of consciousness running away from him, you know, and this is a kind of extraphysical task done by this consciousness. So they go there, they visit, and they approach one by one, and they try to rescue this pathological consciousness and send them to hospitals or extraphysical shelters, rehabilitation, extraphysical organizations in term of rehabilitations, in schools. And most of these consciousnesses, they are in the process of returning to life here, with us. And these consciousness, they are living now with us. And they are seeing for the very first time in centuries, things like medication, schools, computers, electricity, democracy, human rights, you know, all the things we mentioned before. So this creates, from their point of view, a positive catalyst impact on their evolution. So the Serenissimus, they don’t only help us to create new ideas, for example the human rights, but they also  rescue consciousness that are suffering for extraphysical lack of human rights and put them here to experience a new life. So when you see from this perspective, you understand that the reason of us to be here in this life, with this body, with these animalised body, with this instincts, it has a meaning. It has a meaning for us to see new things as well and to interact with different levels of evolutionary consciousness, you know what I mean?

Kim McCaul: Yes. Because we can’t do that extraphysically. Extrahysically we're kind of largely surrounded by people of the same, more or less the same level, right? The same frequency.

Tony Musskopf:  Yes. Yes, exactly. And here the evolutionary biodiversity creates the possibility for us to speed up the process. So this personality, they can choose to repeat the same things they have done in the past, for centuries or go ahead and try to experience a new life. You know, it is like putting Neanderthal populations in our contemporary world. So imagine that. So this is very positive. And you see the consequences and the implications of this reurbanization nowadays. When you see, for example, all the social problems we have now, the supra population, the mega cities, unemployment, the pollution, the climate change, all social chaos you have nowadays in the modern and contemporary area,  these are, at the end of the day, some impacts, an after effects or side effects of these extraphysical reurbanisation. So from our point of view, these can be negative. Most of people can think: “Oh, our world is going crazy. Where..”.

Kim McCaul:  Because there is a lot of crazy seeming consciousness, right? There are. I mean, you were talking before about all the advances that we've made, which is true. But it also looks.., if you look at some of the things that are happening in the US and in many parts of the world, in fact, with the way there are anti-democratic forces, really retrograde kind of medieval seeming belief systems that are coming back to the fore, that all kind of make sense from this reurbanisation perspective.

Tony Musskopf:  Yes, it seems that we are walking or you're going back to the past, but is exactly the opposite. We are going ahead. We are moving forward and we are creating the intraphysical scenario for this extraphysical pathologial consciousness coming here and experiencing a new kind of world, you know. And this will he an age an era of extremes.You see, for example, we have people like Taliban people living in the same world that we have now, with astronauts exploring Mars, you know, other planets. Astronomers are studying black holes in the universe. And we see people living in caves our day in Africa.

Kim McCaul:  Arguing the world is flat.

Tony Musskopf:  Yeah. So these extremes, these huge gaps we have in humanity, this is a side effect of the reurbanization. And look, this is the big task that the Serenissimus have done for centuries. For example, the unification of continents. You see now, for example, one of the hypotheses of the Conscientology is that there was a Serenissimus living in Germany just before, just after, sorry, near the Second World War. And after that, we saw the reunification or the consolidation of the European Union. Look, the Europe lived for centuries in war. And now at the end of this last century, we saw the unification of that country. Now we are seeing another war in Europe and intention of doing some kind of fragmentation again, the neo-Nazi movement in Europe. So this is all about reurbanisation. So this process, it's happening now on Earth. And the Serenissimus are behind of this assistance. We are like, not aware about that. But you can be part of this huge assistencial task by start studying this  and starting developing our parapsychism and understanding a bit more. How can you be useful and work alongside with this consciousness, this evolved consciousness?

Kim McCaul:  Well, that really leads me to the final set of questions, which is how do we study somebody or, you know, a set of people, human, intraphysical and extraphysical, who very deliberately want to stay anonymous and to work at such an extensive scale and the how do we go about exploring and studying. And then you mentioned the Serenissimus from Germany. Like, how was that person identified? How are they identified and maybe, maybe get to that later. What other ones do we know of?

Tony Musskopf:  Well, look, the conventional science is not or is still not able to prove a theory of the Homo Sapiens Serenissimus. We cannot prove it by using traditional methods and we cannot see the Serenissimus by using traditional tools or scientific tools. The only tool we have now to access and see this reality is by applying out of the body techniques. So everybody is able to apply, to study, for example, the Projectiology science and apply techniques to leave the body, to leave to the physical body, to see other realities, to travel to other dimensions, and to see the universe that exists beyond our intraphysical life. And when we start seeing other dimensions or extraphysical dimensions, sooner or later we are going to see and face the Serenissimus reality. This is a matter of time. So I would say that the main tool, the main method to his study and getting in contact and see and interview and understand more the Serenissimus is via or using Projectiology, using the out of the body experiences. So that's that's the main reality.

Kim McCaul:  I would. I mean, I can understand it in theory. It makes sense, right. The Serenissimus is most visible I guess extraphysically or at the energies the evolutionary processes perhaps. But, you know, I read quite a lot of OBE literature by different authors. And I don't know that I've come across very many, even extensive projectors that necessarily describe, you know, consciousnesses that we would think on that that might be Serenissimus. So even then, it seems to be not that straightforward.

Tony Musskopf:  Look, I guess there are some narratives in history that projectors left on, some chapters of the history in terms of contact with more evolved consciousness. We can see, for example, Emanuel Swedenborg narratives. He had contacts with this kind of realities. But he also developed the Swedenborg syndrome. He also overreacted and became like a person who start developing beliefs and dogma and religions thoughts about that. So then that's why it's very hard and I understand your point in term that's not straightforward. We are not ready. Most of us are not ready for that yet.

Kim McCaul:  I mean, I think, many of us would find it like, for example, the very common experience that people have with near-death experiences is some all loving seeming being of light. You know, people give a different descriptions, often depending on their cultural background. But I suppose the natural human assumption would be when we experience that kind of love and we experience that kind of fraternity and just peace that is often described. Well, that must be a Serenissimus. But I would say that probably there are all kinds of levels, of all kinds of beings before that, that when they're extraphysical can emanate that kind of, you know, that kind of energy just at different scales.

Tony Musskopf:  Yes. And look, and even people that experienced near-death experiences, like people being the survivors of the death, which is a kind of out of the body experience, are traumatized sometimes by the experience, but sometimes is pretty positive because this people, they need to rethink about their lives, leading to a revolution and recycle their own lives. And some people that experienced near-death experience, they saw these beings, these helpers. Most or some […?] narratives from this experience, they are pre-related or linked to the Serenissimus characteristics. You know. So we are kind of detectives. The Serenology is a kind of CSI of Conscientology. We are doing a kind of investigation and we also use a kind of criminology techniques to try to find them, to try to do to follow the finger prints of the Serenissimus. So it's a tricky science, it's a tricky field, and it is not easy. I would say that one of the first steps for, if somebody who is listening to us would like to understand a bit more about Serenissimus theory, is start studying, start getting in contact with these ideas. There is a book, the 700 Conscientology Experiments, a book from Professor Waldo Vieira, in English. The final chapters of this book explains the basis of this theory. Is interesting to read and study and reflect about that and the simple fact you do that, help the researcher to get in contact with this level of understanding or more complex idea. And a technique we can try as well is to study the Serenissimus theory by reviewing the literature about that and visit a national park. That's a technique I create a couple of months ago. You go to a national park and think about the Serenissimus and imagine that you are the ranger of this national park. Imagine that you a Serenissimus in that environment and start looking at the wildlife, the pace of the nature, the details. For example, the ants on the ground, the fish in the lake, the clouds, the natural way energy. And what would be your responsibility towards this environment. So if you start thinking from this perspective, this can give you some insights about how the Serenissimus works and operates in terms of this evolutionary level.

Kim McCaul:  It's a beautiful technique. I can see how that would feel, would be such a nice experience. And I'm curious at the same time why would pick a national park and not let's say, sit in a town square where there is the human life taking place around you. You know, why would you choose a national park rather than that?

Tony Musskopf:  Because it's easy for you to sustain a serene state of mind in a national park, which is pretty similar to the Serenissimus state of mind, instead of a metropolis or a urban area. The next level of this technique is, you can try this in a very busy city, you know. But from us, to start doing that, it's interesting to combine the multiple characteristics of the Serenissimus by going to a place like that. Because from the animals’ perspective of the park, you are an anonymous person and from your experience you can develop more evolved and serene and calm fraternal feelings and even expand your energies easily in a national park. A suggestion in doing that is going super early in the morning because it's calmer, the temperature is better, it's so calmer. So it reproduce what's happening inside of the Serenissimus mind and it can be a good technique. And after that, at night you can go back to your place or the place you are there, you know, rest and try to work with your energies and try to connect with the Serenissimus. So this is a simple technique, you know, and after that you can try in different or do or experiment variations of this technique. But this is the simple idea, to try to reproduce, try to simulate the life of the Serenissimus in 24 hours in one day, and try to think from the Serenissimus perspective in 24 hours. But if you do not study firstly about the theory, it's very hard to get insights about how big and how wide and complex they are.

Kim McCaul:  So that that kind of what you just outlined really helps us to get into hothosene of the Serenissimus, to try and get a like an embodied feeling so we can better understand what it would be like to operate at that kind of a level. But I'm curious in terms of a .., you know, when we spoke before this interview, the conversation that even triggered the idea. You mentioned that you're researching Serenissimus and also trying to locate Serenissimus. So how do you go about that? What kind of research do you think I can use to find out, you know, is there Serenissimus in my area, in my neighborhood, in my state, in my country, whatever the scale, I don't know,  how many? Actually, that's a good question. How many are we looking for? You know, is that one in 100, one in a thousand, one in a million?

Tony Musskopf:  These are very good questions and we don't have all answers so far. According to Professor Waldo Vieira, there are around 100 Serenissimus living on Earth nowadays. So this demography give us an idea about how rare and how difficult it is to spot them. And don’t worry if you are living far or close to a Serenissimus, because their jurisdiction is wide, they are able to reach every corner on earth. They are everywhere in terms of energy. It doesn't matter. You can be in International Space Station and even there you can connect to the holothosene of a Serenissimus. It doesn't matter if you are in the middle of a desert, it doesn't matter if you are in the big city. So the point is, the most important is the mental and the parapshychic connection we are able to do with this consciousness. So that's the main point. But look, in terms of geography or if you want to map exactly where they are on Earth, or if you could put points on Google Maps to find them, I would say that first they are or they tend to live close to geochakras, which means they try to or they tend to live or they tend to be based at places on Earth that are hotspots of natural sources of energy. So imagine, for example, a place with a huge forest or a huge volcanic activity or with a cyclon area or country or on a combination of all this kind of energies, geo-energies, which means the energies from the ground, hydro-energies, oceans, rivers. If you go to some places, especially touristic places, you can see and can feel in the atmosphere something different. And I’m not saying about the touristic or cultural aspect, I’m saying about the energy of that place, though some places are more energized, more like they are stronger in terms of energy then anothers. And the Serenissimus, they use, they collect these energies to do their job. It's a kind of material or ingredient for them to do this reurbanisation. We can see from Vieira’s research, he mapped some kind of personalities, some Serenissimus around the world. For example, we mentioned the Reurbanisator, which is one of them who lived in Germany, close to the Switzerland border. Another close to Montauk Bay in the United States. This one we call the Eskimo, which is the Inuit in English, a fishermen. He's a fisherman and he has connection to cyclones and the aero energy. And he works to sustain diplomatic and peaceful works related to the Washington and United States and Mexico area, you know. In Latin America, we have Australinus, which is another one. He lives in the province of Cordoba, close to the Andes mountains, and he has connections to the Spanish culture. And he also works in terms of the politics and diplomatics in the Latin America region. The Antarctica as well. He has connection to the Antarctica, In China we have a Serenissimus there related to the Chinese culture. So they are everywhere. They are in multiple places. There are some researchers suggesting the existence of certain Serenissimus in Africa and either here in Australia close to the Great Barrier Reef, because of the connections to the ocean and the culture related to the old populations that live in the islands in the Pacific, you know. So it's all about your own experiences. We don't want to suggests this theory in terms of a dogma. We don't want to prove that. We are not concerned about or worry about having proof or physical proof of that. We are just suggesting this as a possibility. And the think, Kim, you have the anthropology as the background. You study the evolution of human being. And the theory of Homo Sapiens Serenissimus is a big challenge for researchers from anthropology, paleontology, biology, even psychology. This is going to change everything everywhere, if you consider the existence of more evolved human beings, which is our future, you know, but our future nowadays, right now. So that's the big point of the theory, you know.

Kim McCaul:  And also, when you bring in what you bring in those studies of the past as well, would you say, does the theory suggest that there was always Homo Sapiens Serenissimus on this planet, or are they a result of millennia of evolution, of consciousness in human form, or did they already come from other planets or something already in this state.

Tony Musskopf:  According to Professor Vieirra, they come from other planets because our planet is a brand new planet for Serenissimus. To become a Serenissimus takes like millennia or millions, billions of years. So it's something that is not possible to do in the short existence of Earth. So most of the Serenissimus we have here are from other planets, as an hypothesis. But look, perhaps for the first time, this planet will have its own human Serenissimus, so we can label them the Serenissimus made by Earth, so they are from here. So that's why the reurbanisation is taking place here, to speed up the process. But look, the positive side of this history is we are at the last chapters of this journey, we are not like birds, apes, insects, bacteria anymore. We are human beings. We have a brain and we have in our brain potentials and skills that are not being utilized, we do not operate at this potential. So we have a brain. We have a Serenissimus brain. It is just about to use it. You know, is just about to make the choice of start speeding up our evolution, to leave instincts, to leave primitive emotions, to leave immature behaviors, to put all these aside, you know, and prioritize what is most important for us, which is learn about ourselves, understand about our consciousness, and try to domain and control our own emotions instead of being victim of our instincts. You know? So this is the challenge of this theory. This is not a theoretical theory. This is a practical challenge. Conscientology is a science that invites you to study yourself and make a change in your self by applying techniques, as I mentioned before. So it's all about how to put theory in practical actions, to make our lives better, healthier and more meaningful. So that's the message of the Serenissimus theory at the end of the day.

Kim McCaul:  Yeah, I like that. And I think, you know, as you if you want to grow and if you want to overcome, you know, all traits, weak traits and turn them into strong traits, it's very helpful to know, to have a model, to have a goal, to have working tools. And that's also the vision I'm getting, you know, which is why it's good, why it could be helpful for us to study about Serenissimus, to understand what it is like to be in that state, because it gives us something to work towards, even if it's not going to happen in this lifetime or the next lifetime. But there is a big picture vision, right? It’s like a focusing our consciousness in that in that direction of north, the Serenissimus.

Tony Musskopf:  Exactly. That's an excellent point, Kim. The Serenissimus is a goal, it’s a model for us because we will be Serenissimus in the future, believing or not, agreeing or disagreeing. It doesn't matter. This is our future. It's the nature of our evolution. We cannot change that. We have done this for billions of years and now we have the chance for the first time to understand the next steps of our evolution. And as we said the Serenissimus is the model, is the most like advanced and understandable in some ways, model of our human evolution.

Kim McCaul:  Well, I think that's a good place to leave it. I think, as you said at the beginning, it might have left people with more questions than answers. But that's a good place because that sets you up for some research and for exploration and for making your own discoveries. And I'd like to just remind people that the technique that you mentioned of going to the national park or some other beautiful sort of nature area, I can really see, even if people might struggle to connect actually with the Serenissimus, but just those practices that you mentioned about really becoming present to the big picture of the complexity of the system that we are a part of, the system of nature helps us uplift our thosenity, our thoughts and our emotions. And I would like to ask Tony at the end, is there anything that you'd like to say as a final words or any websites, anything that you would like to let people know about, to look at?

Tony Musskopf:  Yeah. I just would like to recommend the book of Professor Vieira, The 700 experiments of Conscientology.

Kim McCaul:  I'll put a link to that actually in the show notes because I know there is a PDF version available online, so there will be a link to that. You can access that.

Tony Musskopf:  That's true, and I think this is a good start point for those who want to understand a bit more about the theory. There are a lot of Conscientology resources online. We can study it, not only about the Serenissimus, but evolutionary steps that are closer to us, because the Serenissimus it’s far from us in relation to wider evolutionary levels. So we can see a kind of degrees or milestones in terms of evolution, and Conscientology has a lot of resources. So yeah, it's all there. We can put this online and people can access that for free. Even in English. Most of the literature is unfortunately in Portuguese. There are people that are working on translating these into English. But yeah, in regards to the Serenissimus, the book of the 700 Experiments is the biggest source in English we can find. Okay. And well, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to share these ideas. And yeah, I'm more than happy to try to answer any questions. But as we said, at the end of the day, we have more doubts and questions than proper answers. But I think that's the spirit of science and that is the spirit of Serenology.

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